Page 2 of 2

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:29 pm
by Berni
BRIGHTON121 wrote:
Berni wrote:Now Lee - the numbers did not work - so you need to rethink - Paul and I both need financial help - mine is just so I can keep the house - sad I know but life.
I have a friend who is about to move to Spain and she has asked me to take her Parrot - not sure what sort it is but I am sooooo happy, I have a dog from a rescue centre she is called Tasha and is a Boxer Lab cross - totally mental animal, and a tortoishell cat called Lyta she is also completely bonkers (comes down the park for a walk with the dog).
I would love to open a sanctuary for animals who noone wants anymore, that would be my ultimate plan...............
Love always
Berni
Yes, sad to say life is not always fair but you seem to be very grounded and you will succeed, as they say in the the Good Book, "and this too shall pass". Sanctuary? This is a good ultimate plan! You just need the backing of Bill Gates and you will be home and dry :wink: Sounds like you already have the makings of a sanctuary :lol: There again two nights in Ibiza would not be such a bad plan :lol:
Be Good, Life is Short .

Very nice Lee - but what about those winning numbers - come on sweetcheeks - Paul and I could do with some luck.

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:23 pm
by Paul Scott
Damn right I could! But I am holding out for the EuroMillions!

Into the Blue

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:08 pm
by Chris
Hello Lee,

I read your comments pertaining to the 'Into the Blue' project with interest. In addition to doing what you felt was right, what better place to do it than in the Turks & Caicos ! I think the intention behind your post was to spark some debate so allow me to offer my 10 pence worth.

I'm not mistaken three dolphins (two from Brighton Aquarium and one from Morecombe Marineland ?) were flown out to the Caribbean and released after a period of rehabilitation. Personally, I'm not so sure releasing these dolphins was the right thing to do given the circumstances - specifically I question whether this really was an act of altruism and whether the best interests of the dolphins were served.

The experience seems to have exorcised demons from your prior working life within dolphinaria and likewise I'm sure you're colleagues at Into the Blue felt good in themselves for removing the dolphins from what were undeniably inappropriate habitats and later releasing them into the Caribbean. However, these dolphins had lived within a controlled environment for a significant number of years and despite the period of rehabilitation prior to their release, I question whether they could have been expected to develop the skills and mindset necessary to thrive and compete in the wild. Furthermore, as I understand it (and I may be wrong here) these dolphins were not indigenous to the Caribbean and integration with resident pods could well have proven difficult to the point of impossible on the grounds of differences in their dialect alone. Again, as I understand it there is no credible evidence to suggest they went on to lead a happy and healthy existence although I accept there is no evidence to suggest they didn't either !

I'm not for one minute suggesting the individuals behind the Into the Blue project were bad people, quite to the contrary. And, from the images I've seen of the former dolphin pool at Brighton Aquarium I would certainly agree the former residents there lived in a wholly inappropriate envirnoment. Nonetheless, I would have favoured transferring the dolphins to a controlled but far more suitable facility such as the lagoon at Dolphinarium Harderwijk with it's resident pod of some 20 animals.

Anway, I think you were after some debate and so I am happy to have put forward and alternative arguement. My comments aren't intended to provoke a torrent of abuse from the anti-captivity lobby, I'm well aware of the arguements for and against animal husbandry. Instead, I am suggesting that in this particular case the release may have served our needs over and above those of the dolphins.

Rgds.

True Altruism!

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:53 am
by BRIGHTON121
Hello Chris,

I will need some time to reply to your 10 pence worth!

If I may say, if you are not already connected in some way with the performing animal political arena we would do well to have more people like you to articulate for change one way or another. I consider your thoughts far more valuable than 10 pence.

There are so many interesting points that you bring up it is very difficult to know where to begin. Altruism is in the eye of the beholder and there are two lines of thought on the Darwinian principle. I can only speak for myself and can promise you that I acted on the old principle with the interest of others ( Missie, Silver and Rocky ) foremost. You are very right, the Turks and Caicos Islands could not have been more fitting and beautiful location to end a career that I loved but could not continue to carry out. My statement " I did what I felt right " might seem a little shallow now I think about it.

I am happy to say that I do not and will not ever carry demons from anything I do, I will however become ( I hope ) wiser and more enlightened from life's experiences. In my opinion there is a clear separation of the argument for captive animals and the argument for performing animals. All of my opinions are directed to the arena of performing animals and how I believe they cannot fit in to the concept of the capitalist theory of profit without reducing the animals whole well being.

Your comments in the third paragraph on the scientific data and the questions of the release overall are a little to sensitive for me to answer on the Internet. I will agree with you on the seriousness of all the points that you bring up and agree that any future projects involving the release of any long term captive performing animals back into the wild must be fully researched. Nothing less than an outcome of total success concluded before hand.

As for your favored alternative the Dolpinarium Harderwijk, captive dolphins will inevitably give birth prolonging and increasing an ever depleting gene pool of performing acts. I must be honest, I prefer to lie on my back in the garden and look up at the night sky and theorize about Ex Nihilo and the Big Bang and Infinite verses Finite theory. :?

Well I was going to think about your post but here I am almost at the end. I will read your post once more tomorrow and see if you hit another nerve!

Thank you.
Lee.

Re: Into the Blue

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:58 am
by BRIGHTON121
Chris wrote:Hello Lee,

I read your comments pertaining to the 'Into the Blue' project with interest. In addition to doing what you felt was right, what better place to do it than in the Turks & Caicos ! I think the intention behind your post was to spark some debate so allow me to offer my 10 pence worth.

I'm not mistaken three dolphins (two from Brighton Aquarium and one from Morecombe Marineland ?) were flown out to the Caribbean and released after a period of rehabilitation. Personally, I'm not so sure releasing these dolphins was the right thing to do given the circumstances - specifically I question whether this really was an act of altruism and whether the best interests of the dolphins were served.

The experience seems to have exorcised demons from your prior working life within dolphinaria and likewise I'm sure you're colleagues at Into the Blue felt good in themselves for removing the dolphins from what were undeniably inappropriate habitats and later releasing them into the Caribbean. However, these dolphins had lived within a controlled environment for a significant number of years and despite the period of rehabilitation prior to their release, I question whether they could have been expected to develop the skills and mindset necessary to thrive and compete in the wild. Furthermore, as I understand it (and I may be wrong here) these dolphins were not indigenous to the Caribbean and integration with resident pods could well have proven difficult to the point of impossible on the grounds of differences in their dialect alone. Again, as I understand it there is no credible evidence to suggest they went on to lead a happy and healthy existence although I accept there is no evidence to suggest they didn't either !

I'm not for one minute suggesting the individuals behind the Into the Blue project were bad people, quite to the contrary. And, from the images I've seen of the former dolphin pool at Brighton Aquarium I would certainly agree the former residents there lived in a wholly inappropriate envirnoment. Nonetheless, I would have favoured transferring the dolphins to a controlled but far more suitable facility such as the lagoon at Dolphinarium Harderwijk with it's resident pod of some 20 animals.

Anway, I think you were after some debate and so I am happy to have put forward and alternative arguement. My comments aren't intended to provoke a torrent of abuse from the anti-captivity lobby, I'm well aware of the arguements for and against animal husbandry. Instead, I am suggesting that in this particular case the release may have served our needs over and above those of the dolphins.

Rgds.
Reply sent.

Into the Blue

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:59 pm
by Chris
Hello Lee,

I hope after sleeping on it you understand my '10 pence worth' was not intended to cause offence or to hit a nerve - this is a contentious not to mention emotive issue and I appreciate your measured reply. I'm glad there is a forum such as this in which we can exchange our opinions rationally. Your views are credible and of great interest to me in light of your prior experience with dolphinaria and the 'Into The Blue' project. Contrary to this, I speak from a position of no authority on the subject other than with a passing interest and support for the work of good zoos and aquaria.

In response to your second paragraph I am not connected in anyway to the performing animal political arena. And, I agree with you in that there is a distinction between the argument concerning captive versus performing animals. Like you I deplore the latter.

As you will have picked up by now I am in support of breeding and displaying captive animals for the purpose of promoting education and conservation. I extend this to facilities exhibiting animals which are not (yet) on the brink of extinction but where wild populations are under pressure more often than not as a result of human activity. However, I despair with the trade off against education and conservation with entertainment and this in my opinion is where a number (but by no means all) dolphinaria under achieve and get the balance wrong.

So, it’s from a position of support and enthusiasm that I choose to volunteer constructive thought on how dolphinaria might consider ways to enhance the content and presentation of its work and thus it's image as a whole. As I eluded to earlier this comes purely as a spectator rather than an authority. With some disappointment it has proven difficult to engage facilities and I have experienced the industry to be something of a closed shop. I can understand this to some extent owing to the adverse press it regularly receives for the anti-captivity lobby. However, I do think dolphinaria misses an opportunity here and it would better serve its interests to improve outward communication.

I'd like to see a coordinated network of good dolphinaria with first rate facilities accurately, effectively and tastefully promoting education and conservation. Furthermore, I'd like to see collaborative work with independent research organisations and conservation/pressure groups. As an example the WSP dolphins were used in a research effort to develop dolphin-friendly fishing nets, this sounds like incredibly valuable work and could only be made possible (if not at least much easier) with captive dolphins.

Anyway, I totally digress and my 10 pence worth has turned into a full British pound ! I hope my previous email didn't cause offence, the intention was to add an alternative view to the debate and I enjoyed reading your comments.

Keep in touch.

Rgds, Chris.

Re: Into the Blue

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:32 am
by BRIGHTON121
Chris wrote:Hello Lee,

I hope after sleeping on it you understand my '10 pence worth' was not intended to cause offence or to hit a nerve - this is a contentious not to mention emotive issue and I appreciate your measured reply. I'm glad there is a forum such as this in which we can exchange our opinions rationally. Your views are credible and of great interest to me in light of your prior experience with dolphinaria and the 'Into The Blue' project. Contrary to this, I speak from a position of no authority on the subject other than with a passing interest and support for the work of good zoos and aquaria.

In response to your second paragraph I am not connected in anyway to the performing animal political arena. And, I agree with you in that there is a distinction between the argument concerning captive versus performing animals. Like you I deplore the latter.

As you will have picked up by now I am in support of breeding and displaying captive animals for the purpose of promoting education and conservation. I extend this to facilities exhibiting animals which are not (yet) on the brink of extinction but where wild populations are under pressure more often than not as a result of human activity. However, I despair with the trade off against education and conservation with entertainment and this in my opinion is where a number (but by no means all) dolphinaria under achieve and get the balance wrong.

So, it’s from a position of support and enthusiasm that I choose to volunteer constructive thought on how dolphinaria might consider ways to enhance the content and presentation of its work and thus it's image as a whole. As I eluded to earlier this comes purely as a spectator rather than an authority. With some disappointment it has proven difficult to engage facilities and I have experienced the industry to be something of a closed shop. I can understand this to some extent owing to the adverse press it regularly receives for the anti-captivity lobby. However, I do think dolphinaria misses an opportunity here and it would better serve its interests to improve outward communication.

I'd like to see a coordinated network of good dolphinaria with first rate facilities accurately, effectively and tastefully promoting education and conservation. Furthermore, I'd like to see collaborative work with independent research organisations and conservation/pressure groups. As an example the WSP dolphins were used in a research effort to develop dolphin-friendly fishing nets, this sounds like incredibly valuable work and could only be made possible (if not at least much easier) with captive dolphins.

Anyway, I totally digress and my 10 pence worth has turned into a full British pound ! I hope my previous email didn't cause offence, the intention was to add an alternative view to the debate and I enjoyed reading your comments.

Keep in touch.

Rgds, Chris.
Hello Chris,

No offense taken :D The office I work in tend to discuss less interesting topics and are not as articulate as yourself so you caught me off guard :shock: No disrespect to my fellow worker :D s

I am not sure if I'm happy with you forcing me into thinking of these difficult subjects just before Christmas :wink:

I must say that I am on my second glass of robust Californian red wine so do forgive my pattern of writing and I will probably finish my reply at a later date. I just wanted to let you know that many of your opinions have merit and I enjoy the thought process of reply.

The one analogy that I find interesting for not needing animals in captivity for education or public opinion purposes is that of the Blue whale and the Sperm whale analogy. It was through wonderful media presentation and public education that led the general public to support changes and bans that allowed the species to regain a foot hold on survival. There was no need to put them on display ( they are to big anyway, not cost effective and its difficult to find a hoop big enough for them to jump through :wink: )

Now on my third glass of wine and I must stop writing and gather my thoughts :wink:

All the best
Lee.

Re: Into the Blue

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:00 am
by BRIGHTON121
Chris wrote:Hello Lee,

I hope after sleeping on it you understand my '10 pence worth' was not intended to cause offence or to hit a nerve - this is a contentious not to mention emotive issue and I appreciate your measured reply. I'm glad there is a forum such as this in which we can exchange our opinions rationally. Your views are credible and of great interest to me in light of your prior experience with dolphinaria and the 'Into The Blue' project. Contrary to this, I speak from a position of no authority on the subject other than with a passing interest and support for the work of good zoos and aquaria.

In response to your second paragraph I am not connected in anyway to the performing animal political arena. And, I agree with you in that there is a distinction between the argument concerning captive versus performing animals. Like you I deplore the latter.

As you will have picked up by now I am in support of breeding and displaying captive animals for the purpose of promoting education and conservation. I extend this to facilities exhibiting animals which are not (yet) on the brink of extinction but where wild populations are under pressure more often than not as a result of human activity. However, I despair with the trade off against education and conservation with entertainment and this in my opinion is where a number (but by no means all) dolphinaria under achieve and get the balance wrong.

So, it’s from a position of support and enthusiasm that I choose to volunteer constructive thought on how dolphinaria might consider ways to enhance the content and presentation of its work and thus it's image as a whole. As I eluded to earlier this comes purely as a spectator rather than an authority. With some disappointment it has proven difficult to engage facilities and I have experienced the industry to be something of a closed shop. I can understand this to some extent owing to the adverse press it regularly receives for the anti-captivity lobby. However, I do think dolphinaria misses an opportunity here and it would better serve its interests to improve outward communication.

I'd like to see a coordinated network of good dolphinaria with first rate facilities accurately, effectively and tastefully promoting education and conservation. Furthermore, I'd like to see collaborative work with independent research organisations and conservation/pressure groups. As an example the WSP dolphins were used in a research effort to develop dolphin-friendly fishing nets, this sounds like incredibly valuable work and could only be made possible (if not at least much easier) with captive dolphins.

Anyway, I totally digress and my 10 pence worth has turned into a full British pound ! I hope my previous email didn't cause offence, the intention was to add an alternative view to the debate and I enjoyed reading your comments.

Keep in touch.

Rgds, Chris.

Hello Chris,

Right, on my first glass of red :wink: I feel that you are indeed one with an open mind and on the right track. Dolphinariums are indeed a closed shop, not all because of bad press etc, but because some establishments do have something to hide :( .

Conditions, record keeping and over all animal husbandry for captive marine mammals has improved in some cases. Duplication of dolphin names to create the illusion of longevity I hope is a thing of the past and mortality from human induced foreign bodies to their captive environment is not used as a way out for death due to a more complicated captive issue :shock: .

Second glass of red :D :D I felt the same way many years ago and felt very strongly about the need for captive breeding programs and education for the public with a hands on approach. I now feel the cost out ways the benefits, such is life. I would wish for nothing more this Christmas than to have the doors of a dolphinarium open and invite you in to the day to day routine. I would welcome you to view the dark side :evil:

All the best
Lee.

Into the Blue

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:40 am
by Chris
Hello Lee,

Yes, I am familiar with the analogy of the Great Whales such as the Sperm, the Blue and the Humpback. Media productions certainly played their part in bringing the plight of these animals into the public conscience. Sadly, however it is well documented that Humpback’s et al. are by no means out of danger owing to the apparent slide back towards commercial whaling in addition to the equally important yet less provocative threat of falling krill stocks.

The earlier media productions had shock value and were effective in stirring public outcry. In my opinion today's society is far more sensitised to harrowing images of war, famine, abuse and so on and as a consequence wildlife documentaries alone addressing issues such as whaling will not elicit the same response as they once did. To use another analogy to illustrate this point I don't believe the recent G8 concerts were successful in moving/provoking the public in quite the same way as Live Aid did some 20 years before.

So, while effective media can play a part I would argue that conservation of the Great Whales can be greatly supported by the work of good zoos and aquaria - there is merit in both approaches. Dolphinariums are ideally placed to help raise awareness through providing the wider public with a more tangible and less forgettable experience. Whether all dolphinariums are presently effective in doing this is another matter and I've raised concern regarding this issue in my previous email.

I too hope the 'cowboy' practices to which you refer are a thing of the past. Strict governance with unannounced audits etc. is perhaps the only way to ensure individual dolphinariums adopt appropriate house keeping. You’ll know better than me whether there are agencies empowered to do this - if not it’s something the better establishments should argue for. And finally, unless there is significant reform within the industry to address the balance between education and conservation versus (at worst) tasteless entertainment I like you may in time loose enthusiasm for it. For now I'll keep offering my 10 pence worth for anyone who cares to listen !

Rgds, Chris.

Re: Into the Blue

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:12 am
by BRIGHTON121
Chris wrote:Hello Lee,

Yes, I am familiar with the analogy of the Great Whales such as the Sperm, the Blue and the Humpback. Media productions certainly played their part in bringing the plight of these animals into the public conscience. Sadly, however it is well documented that Humpback’s et al. are by no means out of danger owing to the apparent slide back towards commercial whaling in addition to the equally important yet less provocative threat of falling krill stocks.

The earlier media productions had shock value and were effective in stirring public outcry. In my opinion today's society is far more sensitised to harrowing images of war, famine, abuse and so on and as a consequence wildlife documentaries alone addressing issues such as whaling will not elicit the same response as they once did. To use another analogy to illustrate this point I don't believe the recent G8 concerts were successful in moving/provoking the public in quite the same way as Live Aid did some 20 years before.

So, while effective media can play a part I would argue that conservation of the Great Whales can be greatly supported by the work of good zoos and aquaria - there is merit in both approaches. Dolphinariums are ideally placed to help raise awareness through providing the wider public with a more tangible and less forgettable experience. Whether all dolphinariums are presently effective in doing this is another matter and I've raised concern regarding this issue in my previous email.

I too hope the 'cowboy' practices to which you refer are a thing of the past. Strict governance with unannounced audits etc. is perhaps the only way to ensure individual dolphinariums adopt appropriate house keeping. You’ll know better than me whether there are agencies empowered to do this - if not it’s something the better establishments should argue for. And finally, unless there is significant reform within the industry to address the balance between education and conservation versus (at worst) tasteless entertainment I like you may in time loose enthusiasm for it. For now I'll keep offering my 10 pence worth for anyone who cares to listen !

Rgds, Chris.
Hello Chris.

I must agree with you 100%. Why lift the whaling ban when it was producing such a positive impact :? :roll: Politics and a must for tolerance and understanding for other cultures,etc,etc,etc, such is life.

What a good idea :idea: Have an impartial non bias FAIR body ( I know they all mean the same) to evaluate and regulate for the good of conservation and education with a world elected body chosen from professionals and care givers in the relative field from both view points :wink:

I must say if Rocky,Missy and Silver did not manage to acclimate to their new environment I get some solace from believing a type of martyrdom for the cause ( Legislation for the capture,transportation and exhibit in the U.K of marine mammals)was established and implemented :cry:

May I ask what you do for a living and if you are happy in that field? Do you feel you make a difference ( making a difference comes in many forms). I hope you give a positive response. Your approach on this subject shows a tolerance and understanding that makes a difference in many fields of life and occupation.

All the best.
Lee.